Episode 103

Ronald Root on Mastering the Art of Speed Hiring, Team Fit & Authentic Recruiting

TIM: We are live on the Objective Hiring Show with Ronald. Ronald, thank you so much for joining us today.

RONALD: Thanks, Tim.

TIM: It is our pleasure to have you. And where I'd love to start today is just, if you could give us a bit of an introduction about yourself, who is Ronald, and who are we listening to today? Because I think that'll really help us contextualize the conversation.

RONALD: Absolutely, Tim. I'm happy to. So my name is Ronald. I'm from the Netherlands, as you might hear my accent already. And I've been working in data pretty much all my life already. Data came to me a little bit as a child. Byproduct of my engineering studies. But I quickly found out that it was really my passion, particularly in the more renewable energy industry, where I've been working for the majority of my career. So throughout that whole career, I figured out building data foundations, which consist Obviously, a lot of technology, but much more importantly, a lot of very intelligent people that are grouped together in teams. And that has been my passion ever since. That's what I do. I build data foundations, and I try to do that in the renewable industry.

TIM: Awesome introduction and a nice segue to something that we discussed about a month ago when we first met, which I hadn't heard about really. And you described them as like hiring speed dates. And so I'd love to hear about your hiring speed dates, how they work, how you came up with it and how they've been going

RONALD: Yeah. Oh, it's excellent. And when we spoke, I think I was in the middle of a couple of them because that's how it works. I hired a lot of data professionals. And what I found out is that in working with, let's say, HR or recruiters or recruitment, it's not always easy to directly assess based on a resume or a cover letter or the talks that maybe the recruiters have with them. Yeah. the person if there's actually a fit. And as I already mentioned in my introduction, that building data fundamentals consists of the technology and the people. It's not that you have some technology and you're just looking for some people to work with that. That's not how I look at it. I really look for character. I really look for people that fit in the team and that make the best combination of also the other people that are already there, and I quickly found out that either it took me way too much time, and I had a lot of people coming, driving to the office, or even maybe flying out to the office to apply for a job interview. And then let's say in a couple of minutes, you already figure out, okay, this is not the person, and what do you do then? That is. That's painful because the person came, they invested a lot of time, and you invested a lot of time. So that was a process that annoyed me a little bit. An engineer that I am, I'm always looking to fix annoying problems. And one of the things that I then figured out is that why don't we just make a very short 20 to 30 minutes call. And I'll just do a lot of them. And yes, I call them speed dates because they look a little bit similar. And in that speed dates, which are also coming in my calendar as speed dates I call them like that. We just go and fire off a lot of let's say, meeting the individuals. And in those very short moments these brief interactions, you get so much more information and so much more I would say, a potential fit or not that I would have for any letter or any other thing. That that's my favorite way to do so typically when I'm hiring for someone, I like recently we hired a data governance specialist. They were looking for quite a senior person. And we just hired it. The person is going to start on the 1st of March. So it's really fresh. We had over a hundred applicants. Then. I filled it out; I think about 20 to 25 people for the speed dates. So really that ratio. And I simply, on those speed dates, narrowed down again to a big handful, so to say. And that's pretty much how we did it. And that proves to be very effective, very efficient, and also from the people. that were in those speed dates very, they really liked it. They liked the personal touch that they do get to speak with, let's say, the potential manager in question. And now that really proves to be successful.

TIM: and is part of the success of it that you are quite specific in the questions you choose. There's no fluff. You straight into it. Where you're almost choosing quite high signal questions in a way. Is that part of the approach?

RONALD: Yeah, you're exactly right. That's what we do. So I tend to always ask. Why do people do certain things, and why are they in this position where they are? Questions like, What gives you energy? That's always a very good part, and yes, it can happen that people will drift off in a segue that doesn't contain the right information, but, yeah, and maybe that's the bluntness of the Dutch people. But it's also always okay to just say, Okay, sorry, now I feel you're drifting off. And let's try to rephrase it a bit shorter or something like that, and it's fine. Like we, we're all human beings. And as long as you, that's the difference between being kind and nice. If you're sugarcoating everything and you're super nice, that doesn't give you a lot of information. And if you're kind, you can also say things that potentially hurt people a little bit. Obviously it should never be the intention, but yeah, I do think you get better to the point, though.

TIM: And as you said that style in a way like specific and direct and to the point, which I really appreciate certainly not the typical style in Australia. So I feel like we could adopt a little bit more of that honesty. directness.

RONALD: I had someone in the team who was from Australia, a lovely person really had an amazing, but we indeed had a lot of conversations about that. And that person had to really get used to the style of the Dutch being so direct. It was okay. What's happening here? No, it's just fine. We're just having a conversation. So I, yeah, I understand what you're saying.

TIM: I've noticed this even in my own speech because I'll be speaking in particular to my nephews, who are small kids, and I realize the words that I'm using are so vague and indirect. Maybe I feel like you should think about doing x. Whereas what I mean is. That's what in my head is what I'm trying to communicate, but I've added a lot of fluff around it, which then means they're like, Whoa, okay, so I won't do that. What do you want? And yeah, I really feel like I could learn a thing or two.

RONALD: I don't know. I don't know. But yeah it works with kids as well. I have four kids myself, so I know a little bit about what it is to deal with them. So yeah, absolutely.

TIM: And you mentioned part of the, I guess, the challenge, which led to you moving to this, let's say, speed hiring style of approaches that for recruiters and talent acquisition is very hard for them to evaluate. something as technical as an analyst or data scientist, because it's so far out of their own skill remit. Have we almost like in the way we do hiring, if we almost set them up to fail, like our expectations, unrealistic that we could even expect someone who's, standard deviations away from that skillset to do an evaluation, even a basic screen.

RONALD: Yeah. I think you're right. And there are, in my mind, two effects that play along. Let me try to summarize this. The first is, and we use in Dutch the saying the sheep with the five legs ; the German one is a lot better. I'll pronounce it in German; it's the Eierlegende Wollmilchzaal. That's the egg laying wool milk pig. So in other words, we're just trying to look for the whole package and everything in it. And what I mean by that is that you find that. The people that are very good at certain things, which you are looking for in your team, should complement each other. So if you're looking for people that are a little bit above average and good at everything, you'll end up not with a team with a lot of dynamics and a lot of, let's say, positive friction that creates a better and a more solid foundation. You need a little bit of. Rough edges are also in people to actually get ahead and innovate. And that brings me to the second point. And that is, I think, particularly hard for a lot of recruiters. Most of the people working in data and analytics don't get energy from going to job interviews. They typically don't get energy going to a birthday party where they don't know anybody. They'd rather stay at home and be a bit with more confide. In other words. They typically are not extroverted in the sense that they get energy from new situations and new things. So what happens is then if you have a recruiter that doesn't know exactly what's happening and almost has a list of terms like data science, Python, Azure, and all these things and goes into some kind of small talk-ish, fluffy conversation with such a person. It will just die. It will just not happen. And that's also why I feel that that's an extra difficulty, I think, in the field of data, and I think you should go straight through.

TIM: And it must also be especially hard because I'm not having measured this, but my gut feel would say that the average talent acquisition personal recruiter is probably an extrovert.

RONALD: in my experience, yes. Yeah,

TIM: I feel like also one bias rule of thumb we have when interviewing is to conflate confidence with competence.

RONALD: Absolutely.

TIM: And if you're a quiet, introverted data nerd, you might not convey your genius to someone who's expecting you to put on, like, a song and a dance. And that's the way you pitch yourself.

RONALD: Yeah, and I've also even noticed another effect is that those data expert nerds could even come across as a bit arrogant. because they're just so clever and know exactly how it works. So in their confidence, it doesn't show like in a very extroverted or social way. But if they're done a bit confident, then it sounds maybe almost belittling to the recruiter, which not unintended, absolutely no bad intentions happen. So that's one of the reasons why. I think it helps if you have a more direct approach. And the same happens that you can now also, as a manager, recruit directly through LinkedIn with all kinds of nifty AI features that help you to select a certain demographic and population of people that look like where you've queried to. And by writing those people direct messages on LinkedIn, that's also amazing how that works. It's, yeah, everybody working in data gets quite frequent messages like, Hey, would you like to work in X, Y, Z? And in 90 percent of the cases, it sounds very awful to do. So most of the things then if the manager actually approaches you. That's really nice. Like, you really feel like, Oh, wow. Oh yeah. It sounds like somebody that knows what they're doing, or at least until they may be spoken to you, but in in, in that reach out and that is also a very positive effect. So that's definitely also a tip that I would like to give to fellow CEOs fellow people working in data. Use the LinkedIn recruiter and go directly.

TIM: I think that's a really great insight because. Probably most people have been, as you say, on the receiving end of a lot of fairly generic spam on LinkedIn about a variety of things, normally lead generation tools and irrelevant jobs that are targeted to what they were doing 13 years ago or something. So the perception of that outreach is probably very dim, but you're right. It would be very rare to receive outreach from the hiring manager themselves, who is a data expert who writes you a specific message that is actually relevant because they understand the domain. It's not some generic thing that someone who didn't understand the domain knows. So that's a great shot. And it doesn't surprise me that resonates actually.

RONALD: And preferably also with not a lot of attention to style or to very polished communication, just directly what you think and be open to that. And also if people, I don't know, don't like that kind of communication, that's also a sign, right? It's just, if you, let's say increase the amount of people that you have meaningful and direct communication with, Then you will just have a better outcome of your of your search. That's

TIM: It's that simple. You'd mentioned before the combination of people in technology and. Thinking of each of these new incoming potential candidates in fitting with that overall team. I love football. I love a good football analogy. So this is the case of, not wanting to have 11 Dennis Berg camps on the field. You need to have a bit of a Ronald DeBoer and a Frank DeBoer. And I don't know, Arthur Newman to support him and an Edgar Davids in midfield. You need a combination and they all have to fit together in some kind of structure. Is that in terms of, like, their skills, their personality? Like, how do you think about it? Yeah. Moving around these chess pieces on the board to butcher that sports analogy.

RONALD: Yeah. Yeah. All of the above. So I really, I look at three things. So first, you have to have a certain tech stack, and you have. People that don't fit that tech stack, then it will be quite difficult to do; however, I'm not too very strict on that because if you have good people, they will learn new tech stacks anyhow. So if I have a certain technology and I have a perfect fit for candidates and they don't have not mastered that technology yet I'll give them a two day course and they can do it. And that's my mentality, do these things because I'm not looking for people that have, I don't know graduated in that person. For specific technology per se. And the second thing is what I always call the real diversity. I'm aware that there are slightly fewer females, for instance, in, in the data field as there are men. So what I mean with diversity, I'm looking for people with, let's say, different levels of energy, but also different levels of, What they have some people that are extremely enthusiastic all the time. Some people that are a little bit more critical all the time, introverts and extroverts, if you can find them, also a little bit of a healthy balance. So that's what I really look at and how I feel. And the third thing that is extremely important to me is that there is a good fit in the sense that people can really be themselves. I do believe in it. Creating a group of friends almost always, there should be a line, and I'm always thinking about the office where the manager tries to befriend everyone in the office. And obviously that goes horribly wrong. That's not what I intend, but I do believe in a certain relaxed atmosphere where people can really become or are their selves. And that is a very important point to me. I'm not looking for people that play a role or that. have a certain, I don't know, friction or a stiffness in them because they feel they have to act a certain way because of group pressure or because of anything. That also goes back then to my management style. When the people are hired, I'm really allergic also to if people are in, in any shape or form, bullied or if they cannot be themselves; that's really the biggest red flag. But those three things in that combination make sure that you have a diverse team that complements each other, that respects each other, and that can really help each other to create the best product forward. And that's how I've built teams. And that's my vision of it.

TIM: Yeah, you reminded me of the last business I worked in six years ago. And now my overall feeling walking in there every day was, yeah, I could just be myself. I wasn't putting on any masks. And I had the sense that a lot of other people seem to feel that way. Not that I asked them all, but that was, yeah, such a relaxed and liberating feeling. How do you create that atmosphere? How do you signal that in the hiring process as

RONALD: yeah. Pretty much by telling them. So maybe that's already de fluffed the must as I can. But I really try to to tell them and, yeah and also by being myself so I'm trying to, I don't hide anything bad or I'm not in a role, I don't have a pre written list of questions. I'm just having a real conversation from human to human. And also by really explaining them that they can be themselves and also actively asking questions about that. I'm always equally interested in what drives a person as a human being, then how they qualified in XYZ job experience and what they did when the going got tough or what kind of role they hit. Yeah. Yeah. That's relevant. But it's maybe even also more relevant to figure out where somebody is, where somebody is passionate about. And what, where are those people that tell so much and, by showing interest, help people also to get more into that role?

TIM: It sounds like then that the conversations, these kind of speed dates, speed hiring dates that you have would, go down different paths, they might be quite different from candidate to candidates, because you're taking this, you're very human, unstructured, unrobotic, or whatever the opposite of robotic is approach, which helps create that authenticity, that trust, because you're just having a conversation with someone, you're not doing a song and dance, there's no bullshit, you're just trying to really learn about the human that you're talking to. The devil's advocate downside of that might be that then it becomes difficult to compare the candidates against each other because you haven't had this formulaic set of I've asked them all these five questions and I've scored them and, like the opposite kind of most data-driven, most robotic approach, how do you think about that trade-off? Is it a real trade-off? Yeah, I'd love to get your thoughts on that.

RONALD: yeah. No, you're extremely right. And also it tells a little bit about also where my weaknesses are in this process, but also as a, let's say, as a manager, because just today—and it was also the performance review time—I complimented one of my colleagues that is in my team that really helps me to also have that little bit more critical side. And a little bit more abstract way of comparing things because for me, it's quite easy to get enthusiastic about things. And that's what my energy level dictates or that's just how I am. So in that sense, hiring someone, I take the last decision, but I value the opinion of my colleagues very much. And I always make sure that there's somebody way more structured than me. Also involved in the whole hiring process. And that pretty much makes it that we always hire the right people. Also, on average, if I look compared to the rest of the team, people stay twice as long in my teams on average. So I, I do think that people typically find a place where they really like to work and what they do. And, but that's how I make sure that happens. And very often. I end up with two candidates, and I find them just as good—completely opposite candidates, but they're just as good. I really feel like, wow, that's amazing. That wouldn't be cool if this person worked here. That would be great. Sometimes I hired them both. That's also sometimes a luxury that I have, but if that's not possible and I have to make a choice, yeah, we sit together and we just. Make sure that it's not a democratic process 100 percent because, at the end, I have to be the dictator. But certainly we value and we really come up with a good evaluation.

TIM: It sounds like you've struck on a nice combination by virtue of the fact that the other people involved are taking this sort of unstructured, very personalized, very human, very organic, and then the more structured, more measured approach, and that maybe there's something to be said for the combination of those two different approaches in the same hiring process, maybe giving better value rather than just doing one or the other.

RONALD: I feel it should always be a combination of both. As I also think that in real life, your excellent performance or your high-performing team is always a combination of both. People that can be themselves. They like the vision or the mission. They really can get behind it. And they have the feeling that they can find their colleagues and ask for help and also fail. If they make a mistake at it, they dare to make mistakes. That typically gives you the highest performance. And that is a combination of those two things. Yes, you need skills. You need people with a certain talent for certain things. And ideally, let's say, spread out around all the different challenges that we have in the field of data, all the way from data management to creating products to doing all kinds of things with self-service and engaging with customers and end users that also are going to create products. It's It's very diverse and you really need it, need all of it to be successful as a company. And that's why you need this array of people.

TIM: It's your intuition, because it sounds like your approach, your interview approach, is reasonably intuitive. I would think, has your radar ever been way off where you've interviewed someone for a fair, amazing? Maybe you've hired them. You're like, Oh, wow. That was not the right decision, of course, naming no names or anything like that.

RONALD: I think it goes broader than just hiring. But I have worked with individuals in the past in both ways. And I've had worked with individuals that at first I thought this is going to be tough. And in the end, that proved to be extremely successful. And also working with individuals where I really felt, okay, this can work. This person can develop to exactly the talent that, that I would like. And then in the end. There were some things that I thought, okay, that's manageable, or that can, we can work around that, or that can change, and it simply couldn't change. And let's say the impediment grew and became bigger and bigger until you couldn't go around it. And you have to make that real confrontation and that real. Honest, kind, but yeah emotional conversation almost, that's really what you have to do. So yes, that's the short answer. I make mistakes. Absolutely. I'll be the first to admit that I do think that in the process that we have right now with. Pretty much the speed dates and the additional people that look at other things, and together we democratically, but very close to, make a decision that really makes a very solid hiring thing.

TIM: I'm always humbled when I think about hiring accuracy and, wanting to reduce the chance of a regretted hire. So it's good to think about sports teams because I've heard some great stories recently from some football managers who've just spent a hundred million pounds on a player. Which is, I don't know, a thousand years of a data science team salaries or something and have all the data in the world, like all the historical playing data around every minute the players ever played and they get in there on training session number one. They're like, what the hell have we just spent a hundred million pounds on? So no matter how much, research and effort you put into it at the end of the day, you can only be so accurate.

RONALD: Absolutely. And also learn from the mistakes. Fix them when they go and move on. That's also very important that you don't let that happen in that situation and at the same time, be aware also of what are the dynamics in the team and what works there. So yeah,

TIM: Yeah, there's always such a myriad factors that are unobservable anyway, like you have no idea what's going on in this person's private life. Even a long hiring process might be four interviews. It's only four hours; maybe that's still a tiny sample size. That's

RONALD: Of course. Yeah, no, absolutely. No. So there's always a part that is a gamble. You can never tell until you're really there. Yeah, so that's always really something to go. But I do think that if you give the people the room to be themselves in that interview, because everybody, or at least not everybody, but most people prepare extremely well. They have a lot of almost, Perhaps things like, Oh, that's an excellent question, and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And the whole story comes up, right? If you only have that, then it doesn't work. But if you try to steer away a little bit from that, maybe ask questions that they really cannot prepare for, and really try to find their character. I do feel that your accuracy dramatically improves, and you really feel like how it is. And also that's the other thing why I use the speed date analogy. It's similarly important for them to become enthusiastic about us as it is the other way around. I always start off with hey, we're going to get to know each other. It's not asymmetrical at all. We're in a symmetrical situation. We both have a hypothesis that it could potentially be a fit. That's why we're in this call. Let's figure it out. Let's do that together and in the call, most speed dates, I end with the verdict. So at the end I say, okay, yes, we're going to continue or I sorry, I don't think there's a fit. And then we're almost there. We can go on with our lives. That's so much more healthy and also good for, I think, yeah, the expectation management that you have. So no,

TIM: That's an awesome and subtle insight. So you get to the end, and you immediately give them the verdict from your perspective. Of course they may also

RONALD: Sometimes I have to think, yeah, and also sometimes they have to think about it as well. That's fine. That's fine. That's fine.

TIM: And how did they receive that? Because I could imagine for some people it might be confronting to hear it immediately. They're used to being ghosted, which is obviously much worse. than the other end of the spectrum.

RONALD: Yeah. Yeah.

TIM: Yeah. How do they receive it on average? Like when you've said no, I assume you explain a little bit your rationale. And how do they receive it?

RONALD: Sometimes it's tough. Sometimes people don't understand it. So that, that, that can happen. Also yeah if people have not really got to that point there, they really feel connected yet. It might come a bit as a surprise; it's a little bit intuitive as well. So there were also times I felt already what it was, but I knew it would take more time. Then I pretty much called them after and just spent a bit more time in Gordie to go. So that the schedule actually allows for a bit more explanation and particularly a bit more listening because usually that's the thing that people like the most because. Telling them, No, that, yeah, that's very quickly done. But for people to, in that sense, digest that negative feedback, having someone that they can talk to about that and actually having a conversation about it really helps for the whole process. I'm not here to hurt people by any means. So that's really important to me. And that's, I think. Should be our human right to have that kind of conversation. I am against ghosting. That's, I think, you already can tell.

TIM: And I mentioned they're probably going to be more receptive to the feedback because you've already set this very honest, authentic vibe in the interview anyway, so they're not going to view you as some person. Oh, they're just screwing me out of a job like you've had a real conversation with them. So I feel like that, yeah, must make it make them quite receptive. Even if it's not the answer, ultimately thereafter.

RONALD: Yeah. But typically, in most cases, it goes quite automatically. And also people. I already understand it. The conversation is, it is not like very much in between and that people say, Oh, what's going to happen? And then it's a yes or no. It's much more in that direction, or I already tell them if you say this, then I have to inform you, or our job is like that. I don't understand what the match is about. And then they can either explain or they can agree, oh yeah. Then it's not maybe an ideal match. I'm looking for this and that. If you're looking for this and that, have you thought of that and that company? I'm also always open to trying to suggest a good alternative. So yeah, that's exactly as you say. I'm trying to have a human conversation. I'm trying not to. Look too much at statistics and answer scoring answers, but really have a conversation like it's somebody that you get to know somewhere, and you just try to figure out, Hey, what will be a good position for that person?

TIM: Yeah, I love this approach, and it's a very, I think, mature way of doing it because you're just being honest and transparent. You're being authentic. You're just getting straight to the point. You're not beating around the bush and being vague and there's no games. Maybe that's the best way to describe it.

RONALD: No.

TIM: And ultimately this is saving everyone time because you're not stringing people along. They're not playing this bullshit.

RONALD: Yeah.

TIM: It's just.

RONALD: I know people that, that had, I don't know, 50 job interviews or so. That's tough man to have so many job interviews. If you really cannot find the right match, that's tough. Yeah. And to be understandable about the process, we have to value each other's time there.

TIM: There's another really helpful insight you gave us earlier, which was around trying to make them try to unlock their true selves by not just peppering them with questions they've already prepared for, like trying to get them to be honest and open up and be authentic. Part of that must be down to getting them to be like relaxed, have you ever, along this kind of similar vein, have you ever considered like this, these call, these are calls, like these are like phone calls or video calls the first

RONALD: Typically, the speed dates I do are in video calls. Yeah. Because it just saves the hassle. We're in a tiny country. The longest you can travel is three hours, but yeah, still, three hours is still three hours. If it's just 30 minutes, it's literally in between business meetings or. Between bringing the kids to school and, I don't know, going shopping or so, like, it's very manageable.

TIM: Yeah, no barrier. What, because of what I was thinking of, okay, it's maybe not so relevant because it's online, but if this was a in person interview, let's say later on in the hiring process, would you ever take them to a cafe instead, rather than having it in an office just to get the friendlier vibe down?

RONALD: Absolutely. In fact, In Van Oord, we have our own cafe and All my first interviews I hold in that cafe. So it's an open space you have plants and a barista and real coffee and just tables and just a very nice open atmosphere in which you can do however not everyone really likes that. So it's also always good to do. So I always try to reserve a meeting room. Sometimes in my chaotic nature, I forget. But when I have that, I typically give the people the option. Sometimes people prefer a closed space because that just gives them a little bit fewer distractions. And then that's fine as well. But I try to have as many of those conversations in a, as relaxed as possible setting also even business meetings. So I do a lot of business meetings in that particular cafe, and that really works well. I could do it just as easily externally, and that would also be absolutely one hundred percent fine for me as well.

TIM: yeah, it just starts to bring out the true person, and you start to get to the bottom of who they are, rather than. This mask or what have you, that would be so common in an interview. Otherwise,

RONALD: Exactly that.

TIM: Shifting gears a little bit. What are you thinking about AI and hiring? Is this hype? Are legitimate humans going to be involved in hiring in two years, or is it going to be completely automated? What are your kind of big-picture thoughts on AI and hiring?

RONALD: first I'd like to reflect a little bit. Without spending another two hours about AI and the world, what's happening. So I think in almost all processes where human decisions are needed AI can play a a role. And the level of that role or the extent of that role is getting bigger and bigger every day. In, in almost everything that we do. So that, that's, I would almost say inevitable and also to be used for good purposes, huh? So I really, yeah I use AI in, in certain things. In let's say figuring out if somebody could be potentially hired or scanned or screened through an, a robot or a conversational about that. It almost is the opposite of what I just explained about having a real human conversation. So I'm not the biggest fan of that, although I am geeky and nerdy enough that I would love to give it a try just to do that experiment in a safe way with people that consent to it and just see what happens. So not for realsies, but for real, just try to see what happens, just curiosity. If you're using LinkedIn Recruiter, the recommendations that you get after you find a new career through certain profiles are really good. So typically I'm also always in the notion that, yes, if you open up a job on LinkedIn or on any kind of platform and people can apply for it, that gets a lot of. Interesting people, but I always try to recruit some myself directly that are open for work in that status and pretty much just write them a message as I just explained with a lot of typos and just not very polished recruiter-style messages. And in that query, I really noticed the more and more AI that's being brought along. So it, it was already, I think a year or so that I recruited for a person. And while I just recruited last. I really found very interesting people that I don't think I would have found just using the normal linear querying stuff. So yes, AI will help to narrow down and filter and come up with suggestions for other people that look a bit, a little bit like that that person that you that you liked and that you're going to go for. And that model will increasingly become better and better. Is my understanding. Yeah, and as I just said, I do still feel that there should be a very much a human touch in in the engagement and in the first first contact, definitely.

TIM: What about a sort of AI interview assistant? So you're still doing a human interview. You've got like an AI helping you, assisting you in some ways. Summarizing notes, providing potentially maybe drafting some feedback, drafting some scoring. Maybe giving you interviewer feedback as well. Hey, the way you frame this question could have been better because of X, Y, Z. Of things we could do.

RONALD: yeah. So interesting to try out. Not directly something that I think I need or I want. And what I mean by that is I'd rather be in a cafe without laptops and have a human conversation, and if I'm. Due to this speed dating situation in a situation where we have a video conference and really try not to have all kinds of other things. I don't even have the resume printed out or next to me because I really want to focus on the person, but that's my style. I know my colleagues are always different from that, and I like to do that. And there's also a lot of value in that as well. They say I've read in your resume, this and that. I typically don't ask those questions. The resume is a resume. I read it. I think that's a person that could potentially fit. And now we go to the real world where we're going to try to project ourselves in collaborating. How would that work? And that's how we do the questions.

TIM: I like that. If for no other reason, it's just, I'm, and I say this given I'm running a technology company, I realized this is ironic. I'm sick of technology. I really want to banish the iPads and iPhones away for as long as possible. And I just want to speak to a human in real life without any bullshit. So I'm on board for that. If no other reason.

RONALD: No, it's very interesting. And my friends always make a lot of jokes because my kids, they go to a Waldorf school. I'm not sure if you've heard of that concept, but that's a school where there's no technology, no digiports, and stuff. And it's really much more focused on learning. Yeah. First of all, their motto is also becoming yourself and not putting not putting kids to a norm. The real hardcore Waldorf schools don't even have a grading system. So you just do your subjects and that's it. But you also learn a lot of art, a lot of theater, and a lot of, let's say, different subjects. What? How? If you're hammering on iron, that's a typical Waldorf activity. I'm not sure how you're out at school.

TIM: Work.

RONALD: Yeah, metalwork, but that, but not in the like modern way, but the real old fashioned way of doing these things really yeah, like a blacksmith. That was the word I was looking for, like these kinds of things are, is typical. So my daughter is now 30, just a blacksmith at some kind of iron thing that you could use in the fire. It's fantastic. So that's what they learn. So I really love that, that it's, it's very analog, and you learn real things and very human as well. It's

TIM: think we have the equivalent in Australia, or if we do, it's pretty niche. But if I have children in the future, I'd be looking for such a school. I can tell you,

RONALD: It's interesting.

TIM: if you could ask our next guest one question, what question would that be?

RONALD: I think I would love to know from your next guest what is the core of how they determine to hire someone or not. So what is the essence of, let's say, hiring someone or not, in other words? You have a certain expectation of a job profile, a certain fit. How do you determine yes or no? would like to know that.

TIM: So would I. And that's such a fundamental question. It's almost. Seems simple, but it's actually very complex.

RONALD: That gives some food for thought, maybe for a conversation in your podcast.

TIM: Wonderful. Yeah, we will level that at the next guest, and I'm interested to hear what they'll say, Ronald. It's been a really interesting chat today. Very relaxed conversation. I can almost imagine. What kind of interview you would be yourself in the speed hiring scenario? Really engaging one and a really friendly and authentic one. Thank you so much for sharing all your thoughts and wisdom and insights today with our audience.

RONALD: Thanks so much, Tim. It was a great pleasure and look forward to to meeting you again and engaging in more conversations about these interesting subjects.